Red Herrings & RedBubble
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“Ignoratio elenchi (also known as irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis) is the informal fallacy of presenting an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question.” Source Wikipedia
A red herring is usually a deliberate attempt to derail a discussion.
I see this happen time and time and time again here on RedBubble. It is almost impossible to have an intelligent discussion because of all the red herrings. Here are a few (fictional but based on actual experience) examples:
A: “Domestic violence affects 3 out of 5 women during their lifetime.”
B: “Men are abused too. Abuse is just not a woman’s issue.”
A: “Hurricane Katrina victims still need assistance to rebuild their community.”
B: “Crime increased dramatically after the hurricane. It’s like a war zone there.”
A: “Often victims of rape are reluctant to report their attack to police.”
B: “There are women who lie about being raped just to punish a boyfriend.”
A: “Priest abuse of children is widespread and should be openly addressed by the Church.”
B: “Children are abused by family members and strangers as well.”
A: “The man who shot Dr. Tiller is associated with fundamentalist Christian groups.”
B: “Not all Christians advocate shooting abortion doctors.”
Both statements A and B are true. However B has little or nothing to do with the original argument A. It is a distraction; a wrench in the works; a red herring.
What is the best way to respond to a red herring? Identify it as such and return to the original argument.
A: “Thank you for your comment, however the fact that men also suffer abuse is not the issue. . . .”
B: “Abuse is not just a women’s issue.”
A: “You are correct. Abuse is not just a women’s issue. However we are discussing woman abuse.”
B: “Yes but . . .”
At some point you just have to ignore the red herring or you will be addressing it over and over again.
Here is a great book on the art of logical reasoning:
Attacking Faulty Reasoning: A Practical Guide to Fallacy-Free Arguments
Other articles on logical fallacy
Sally Omar
Wow…you really hit the nail on the head once again…and yes you have to ignore the red
herring or you get no where in the discussion and no conclusions are ever drawn…xoxoxox
H M Bascom replied
I find that often the member who has tossed the red herring into the discussion becomes aggressive if you ignore them completely. You have to at least acknowledge their statement, distinguish it from the topic, and then try to redirect the discussion back on point. Often people become hostile when they feel their statements are being dismissed. This is one of the reasons that hot topic discussions usually end up locked or deleted in the general forums.
ArcadiaTempest
Helen…this is a real eye opener…thank you so much for this journal. Seems that the red herrings syndrome is rather rife in so many global issues me thinks. The one that stood out for me here was the comment on ‘Katrina’ ....it was insidious as it could just be slipped in and you may not see how the main point had just been completely de-railed. X Love your observations …...you are good news :>)
H M Bascom replied
Yeah that one on Katrina could lead the discussion toward violence and crime among the minority population of New Orleans. I hate that red herring. It invariably leads to comments tinged with racism and bigotry. I always get a headache.
Paul (Quixote)...
Brilliant, Helen. I may point out that this is also attributed to the media in general when certain positions taken are not defensible. The defender usually trys to get off topic as quickly as possible.
H M Bascom replied
Politicians are the best at tossing red herrings into the discussion. Sometimes I think some of the RedBubble members are media fed, well trained politicians. LOL
Wendy Slee
A. wow Helen…you have gone right to the crux of it…... this is an enlightening journal about something that happens so often but we tend to go along with it rather than wake up and put a stop to it. Hope lots of people read this and take a note!
B. Red herrings are generally unpalatable….. I don’t think I would like to catch one and try cooking it…..
H M Bascom replied
It does happen with regularity, and I have to admit I have even allowed myself to be diverted from the point by it.
I tried pickled herring once. Ewwww.
DragonFlyer
Exactly. In all the ‘discussion forums’.
You are one very good analyst Helen… why the hell aren’t you an academic or a barrister? And – btw I LIKE pickled herring – on rye bread…
K x
H M Bascom replied
:-)
Ben Ryan
I like fishing. I’ve never caught a herring before, mostly snags, the occasional crab (they were red) that fell off because I hadn’t hooked them, and eels that looked oddly like republicans.
H M Bascom replied
Ha! How does one catch an eel? I know how to catch a catfish though. Both are bottom feeders.
Ben Ryan
I think the aborigines at least, used spears. I think these days eel farmers just drain the water out of the tank.
Roseann
Man you just described half the politicians. Well done.
H M Bascom replied
Only half? You are generous. :-)
OZZREBELXTI
Here in Ozz we use herring as “BAIT” LOL : )
H M Bascom replied
Seems they are used the same way in forum discussions. :-)
OZZREBELXTI
Yeah but if all the little fish keep picking at that “HERRING” eventually there is no bait left “-)
H M Bascom replied
I’ve had my fill of bait for the time being. xoxo
Kelly J
Spot on again Helen!!!! I thoroughly enjoy fishing at every opportunity.. however, I do throw the red herrings back! Not my taste at all :))
H M Bascom replied
All in the name of freedom of speech, right? :-)
Shoaib .
well…............
i m not gunna argue with you ! lol
H M Bascom replied
C’mon, give it a go! :-)
Shoaib .
lol no
H M Bascom replied
:-)
VanSnuG
My Red Herring comment …
Helen, I LOVE Salmon. :-)
H M Bascom replied
HAHA xoxo